An Interview with Massad Ayoobmas ayoob 2024

by Gila Hayes

Several months ago, Massad Ayoob was in town, and he agreed to answer member questions that come up every now and again about finding good instructors. We encourage members to invest in documentable, professional training. We beat the drum for getting good training all the time! Often folks react by saying, “I agree! I want to take classes, but I don’t want to choose the wrong class! I don’t want to learn wrong ideas; I don’t want to waste my money.”

I’m sympathetic when folks express those worries. I told the last member who posed that question, “I know exactly who to ask!” After all, who better to discuss choosing an instructor than Massad Ayoob, who has been teaching firearms, survival tactics and the legal issues associated with use of force in self defense for nigh on to five decades? Now, we switch to interview format and learn from Massad in his own words. For those who prefer video, there’s an informal, longer video of our interview at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7-H3lJoz44 .

eJournal: Mas, could you start by telling us about your teaching history and then I’m going to ask you about your history as a student. First, though, please tell us about yourself.

Ayoob: The two run together. If you don’t read, you can’t write. If you’re not a good subordinate, you won’t be a good supervisor and if you don’t learn, you can’t teach.

I started in 1972 when I was assigned as police department firearms instructor. I went on a crash binge, going to every class I could take. I wound up going through Smith and Wesson Academy six or seven times, for example, and I spent some time studying under Ray Chapman, with Jeff Cooper and I had the privilege of spending some time with Bill Jordan. Over the years, I have trained with a great many of the champion shooters and learned a lot.

I try to put as much of that as I can in the funnel to share with my students. It’s been a long run. I’ve been teaching private citizens since 1981.

Right now, we’re living in the golden age of defensive firearms training. We have more good training available than ever. Unfortunately, there’s also more crap than ever. But back to the good news: we’re also in the age of information. It’s a whole lot easier to get some background before you commit a week of your life and maybe a lot of travel to get there and all the tuition, the ammo, and hotel expenses. It’s a whole lot easier to get some reports from others who’ve been to that school and help confirm whether or not it’s the right choice for you.

The first thing you want to look at is curriculum. It’s really easy to get an excellent instructor in the wrong topic. That’s on you; do your research. If you want to learn geometry, don’t go to a history teacher!

Now, there’s a lot you can find online, particularly now, as after-action reports. Google your instructor. See what feedback there’s been from people who’ve been through the class. Often there will be descriptions of the class. For example, if you’re going to go to Bill Rogers’ excellent Rogers Shooting School in Ellijay, Georgia, go to https://pistol-training.com/articles/school-review-rogers-shooting-school/. The late Todd Lewis Green pretty much wrote much the Consumer’s Guide to taking Bill Rogers’ class. It’ll give you a leg up on the program when you get there.

Now, decide what you need. Are you new to the gun? You want to start with basic classes, obviously not advanced classes. Most instructors will have a website. Some of the things to look out for: if they tell you, “Our instructors are all master gunfighters and trained SEALs and Rangers,” and they don’t give their names. This a red flag.

When you get the instructors’ names feel free to call the school and ask, “Could I get a copy of the instructor’s CV, their curriculum vitae?” Ask for their résumés. Now, when you get their résumé, use it for what it’s really for. The résumé is not just a brag sheet; it’s a guide for the prospective employer, which, as the customer, is you! The résumé is for the prospective employer to check and see if those people really have been the places they say they’ve been and done the things they say they’ve done.

What Do You Need?

See if their curriculum is what you feel that you need. Don’t go to a deadly force instructor to learn how to win a pistol match. If you want to learn how to win a pistol match, we have great instructors who are former world champions – not only former world champions but former world champions who can teach. Karl Rehn in Texas is a master instructor and a grand master in USPSA. There’s also Robert Vogel, for example, Ben Stoeger, people at that level.

One real good vetting procedure would be to go to Rangemaster.com which is Tom Givens’ website. Tom is one of the all-time great master instructors himself. He teaches around the country, and he has a cadre, a collective if you will, of people he’s trained to teach. They’re probably teaching somewhere near you.

Finally, when you’re at the Range Master website click the tab for Tac-Con, the Range Master tactical conference. It’s a gathering of probably 40 master instructors and a couple hundred students most of whom are pretty much well along and heck, you can learn from some of the classmates, as well as the designated instructors. In three days, you’ll have a smörgåsbord of master specialists and in two hours with this one, four hours with that one, you can get a really good taste of what they teach. That will help you decide if you want to commit to a couple of days or a week with one of them.

You’ll find people who teach everything from combatives – hand to hand fighting with a gun involved – to Brazilian jiu-jitsu. If you’re looking for general safety advice, even for the people in your life who don’t carry guns or haven’t made that decision yet, you’ve got instructors like John Murphy who can give you an overview on patterns of criminal behavior. For recognition of assaultive behavior indicators, Craig Douglas known as Southnarc, at Shiv Works, is a retired undercover cop, a master instructor in hand-to-hand fighting, but also in the psychology of de-escalation, recognition of threats, etc. The TacCon presenter list is kind of like a list of vetted experts in all the different fields, whether you want to focus on deadly force, tactics, pistol, carbine, shotgun, hand to hand, or whatever.

Armed self defense is really a multi-dimensional discipline and every one of those dimensions is a lifetime study in and of itself. These are people who have spent their lives learning how to distill the key elements into a couple of days of training, maybe a week of training, maybe longer.

eJournal: People like Massad not only teach, but also are students in the TacCon classes, standing shoulder to shoulder with the other students because these guys keep learning, too. That’s so important!

I would have never had the opportunity to meet the late William Aprill had I not been in one of his classes at a TacCon. I’m thankful for the experience of listening to him lecture before he left us.

Ayoob: He was a wonderful man, and his tradition now is being carried on by another master instructor, John Hearn. John has recently retired from a career in federal law enforcement and is now teaching full-time. He is on my recommended list for any of you who are serious about self defense. He’s one of the people you want to train with.

What you can also do if you’re thinking about taking a class is simply call the school and ask to speak to the instructor in question. Let them know your background and what you’re looking for, and ask, “What would you recommend from your curriculum?” Most of us will tell you, “If this is your background, with our stuff, I’d start here. With somebody else, you might want to start there.” They might recommend that for what you were particularly looking for, you go to another instructor.

One other thing to ask about, particularly in deadly force, first aid or emergency driving – what we call high-liability topics where there’s a high likelihood that even if you do the right thing you’re going to end up explaining it in some kind of a courtroom – ask your instructors if it’s their policy to come in and speak as material witnesses for their students and for their graduates. Will they testify how the graduate had been trained?

Now, as an expert witness, I do a lot of cases for both police and private citizens and we’re by and large winning them. We win them with a two-pronged strategy. We show that the defendant did what they were trained to do and that what they were trained to do was, in fact, the right thing to do. That means we have to establish for the jury – with material testimony that we, their instructors, come in and testify – what we taught the defendant to do, why we taught him to do that, and from where the principles we taught came. That allows the defense team to put it all together and at the end, the jury realizes he did what he was trained to do. He did what he was supposed to do, and, they wonder, “What the hell is he even on trial for? Not guilty!”

There are a whole lot of instructors out there who won’t testify. I know one whole school where their policy is, “We don’t get involved with that.” I know of another school with an instructor who won’t do that because if he’s on the witness stand, it’s going to come out that he’s a convicted criminal. Another says, “Yes, our policy is that we’re happy to testify for you for $3,000 a day.” It would be kind of nice to know beforehand whether or not the people who are training you to do what you should do will stand up for you when you actually do so.

eJournal: The instructor’s curriculum vitae is going to suggest strength or weakness, either by a dearth of trial experience or – thinking of yours, which is a book in itself – the cases on which you’ve been an expert, where you’ve testified on behalf of people and to good effect, I might add. There is a related question the potential student must ask themself. This is kind of ugly, so please bear with me. As a student, I must consider a person’s appearance, their demeanor, and the way they speak – are they prone to speak in wild, extravagant terms or are they measured and erudite? I must ask myself, “Do I want that person in front of the people who are judging me?” That’s an ugly question, but I think we need to ask it.

Ayoob: I agree.

eJournal: I would like to return to a factor that you referenced fleetingly at the beginning. People start this journey from a wide variety of experiences. Some had some training, perhaps a military background or a little police work or their dad taught them how to shoot. Others will become gun owners with little grasp of gun safety or how to shoot accurately.

Not all shooting schools teach to that beginning level and for an individual getting started, the question often is, “How do I get the chops to go on to the more advanced school?” Will any instructors let me start at the intermediate level?” What do you say if someone comes to you and asks, “I’ve never picked up a gun. I’ve got to choose one, can you help me out?”

AyoobAyoob: I’ll give them what advice I can over the phone, but I suggest that they call the National Rifle Association and get a referral for an NRA basic firearms and safety instructor near them. There are many thousands of NRA instructors around the country. They teach from the same program. You have got to start with the basics of safety, the basics of competent gun handling, then once you’ve got that down, you’re ready to work on speed, greater accuracy, the rapid draw from concealment, start getting into tactics, and making the deadly force decision.

eJournal: Yes, and there, more than ever, we need to think about our instructors’ background, credentials, and how well they’d serve, if called to testify about what they taught. Life experience is also a qualification. Do I want to learn from a military veteran whose wartime rules of engagement might have been a little bit different than what mine are likely to be? Do I prefer an instructor with a police background? What about the opinion that an instructor must have, as it is sometimes expressed, “Seen the Elephant,” meaning they have killed in war or shot criminals in the performance of police duties. How should we prioritize an instructor’s experience?

Ayoob: First, ask yourself what you want to learn, whether you want to be a recreational target shooter or learn self defense for you and your family. Everybody has a piece of this very complicated puzzle.

The combat soldier certainly has different rules of engagement than you have as an armed citizen. At the same time, they’ve fought for their lives. They can tell you a lot about the mindset of doing that and coming back from it and certainly will be quite skilled generally in weapons handling.

By the way, tell the instructors what sort of weapon you have and find out whether they’re comfortable teaching you its use. A few years ago, a very big entity which shall remain nameless started a firearms training program that was staffed almost entirely by ex-military and, I think, one cop. They said, “Do not bring a 1911 pistol or a revolver to class.” Immediately, the gun world started laughing, “So, the instructors don’t know how to run a revolver or a 1911?” I was told they actually sent some of their instructors to Thunder Ranch for Clint Smith to teach them to run those guns. If you have a double-barreled shotgun, you will be slowing the class down if you take a tactical shotgun class where everyone else is using a slide action or semi-auto.

You’ve got to tailor the tool to the task and in the same way, tailor the instruction to your needs. People may tell you, “Well, cops have different rules of engagement than private citizens.” Actually, it’s not as different as you think. Although the cops ride to the sound of the guns that the private citizen is supposed to avoid, there’s a lot you can learn from police, particularly in your community because they are the resident experts on dealing with exactly the same violent criminals you’ve armed yourself to protect against.

Everyone has something that they can share with you. It’s up to you to determine what is and is not relevant to your particular needs. When in doubt, put it through the filter of common sense and your personal experiences. Read the after-action reports on the internet. If the instructor has a reputation for acting like a drill instructor or something and you’re not comfortable with that, fine. There are other instructors to go to. A whole lot of females who pick up the gun for the first time do so because they’ve been brutalized by some alpha male. If they are more comfortable taking their training from a female with whom they can identify, that makes perfect sense to me. We have many, many highly competent females teaching today.

Do your homework; do your research. What do you need? Find out what different instructors have that, just as you would with any other major purchase. If you had medical issues, you might start first with a general practitioner to figure out where you need to go. They’ll pick what specialists you may need. Do the same here. Get basic gun-handling safety training, which you can get anywhere with good quality, generic NRA training, and go from there. Go in the direction where you feel you need to work.

eJournal: I was going to ask you about women training women. Back when I was teaching, I offered some women’s only classes and there were ladies for whom it seemed important. I also appreciate what you said about the applicability of the police experience. That may help folks make a better decision.

Ayoob: If you think about it, the armed citizen and the cop are natural allies and should be. We have, after all, the same common enemy: the violent criminal.

eJournal: When we’ve had a less than wonderful experience, we seem to want to run it past the next person we want to help us. Do students come to you and talk about sub-optimal classes they’ve taken? What’s the biggest problem area and, from your deeper experience, what instructor behavior would cause you to give a thumbs-down?

Ayoob: It is hard to say. There is at least one instructor out there who’s very much a misogynist and I would never recommend a woman go to him. There are a few that have lots of war stories that they’ll spend about half the class talking about and telling you how great they are. Really, the student comes to us to find out how great they can be. The class is there for us to perform a service; they’re not the audience for our greatness. Bob Lindsay, one of the all-time great instructors and one of the few true super cops I ever met said, “We’ve got to remember, we’re not God’s gift to the students; the students are God’s gift to us.”

eJournal: That’s touching. “Coach” Lindsay was a wonderful person.

Ayoob: Still is! Although he’s retired, he’s still around.

eJournal: I’m glad to hear that! I haven’t run into him for decades. Let’s say that a student starts a course and perhaps one of the problems you’ve mentioned arises. They’re uncomfortable and don’t know what to do. I think everyone who’s taken training has wondered when we should just stiffen our spine and get through the course and conversely, under what circumstances it might be okay to leave. Where is the “go/no-go” line?

Ayoob: That depends on the concern. If it’s a safety issue, a) I would walk out the door, but b) I would discuss it with the lead instructor. On the street, if you had a mugger come up to you, pull a knife, and when you drew your gun and he ran away, wouldn’t you report that? You’re not going to leave him out there when you could call the police, give a description, and maybe save his next victim from being stabbed. The same would be true if you see something unsafe at a class.

It could be that an assistant instructor made a mistake, and the lead instructor needs to know about that, remediate the problem and remediate the assistant instructor who caused it. Perhaps they can put that assistant in a different role elsewhere.

Sometimes it’s language. We have people who think if the instructor says, “Damn it, don’t do that!” that he took the Lord’s name in vain. I take the middle ground on language. There are also some people who use enough F-bombs that they sound like a chicken with a hair lip [laughing and clucking like a chicken]. That gets in the way of the learning experience for a whole lot of people. I will drop the occasional F-bomb: if somebody’s done something careless a second time it’ll be, “Get that effing finger off that trigger!” You can’t be abusive to the student; at the same time, you cannot tolerate unsafe behavior just because they gave you money.

We make it clear that after one safety violation, you’re off the range for the day. You may observe but not participate. If you cross somebody with that gun a second time, you’re out of the class. Go to the parking lot and drive away. No, you’re not getting a refund. We cannot endanger 20 or 30 other people to indulge your arrogance while you sit there living in your bubble, not caring that you endangered other people.

eJournal: That’s a line neither instructor nor students may cross.

Ayoob: If you have a problem and you’re hearing too much profanity, let the instructor know on break. Don’t stand up in the midst of the class screaming, “Thou shalt not take the Lord’s name in vain,” but cut them out of the herd and express your concern privately.

If it’s a safety concern, express it immediately because it can keep someone else from getting killed later that day.

eJournal: Okay – that’s a tough position for the student, and yet, we all have that responsibility for safety.

Ayoob: We are talking about deadly weapons! We tell our students, look, you’re all safety officers and if you see a muzzle stray, you’re expected to yell, “Muzzle,” and if you see a finger in the trigger guard when it’s inappropriate, you’re expected to yell, “Finger!” We are talking about safety with lethal weapons. It is really a duty, not a choice.

eJournal: Well put! We need to hear that every now and again! It takes some courage to speak up when you’re the subordinate student.

Moving forward, ammo prices are high and don’t seem to be coming down, so that increases the cost of taking a class. As an instructor, how would you react if a student said, “I just couldn’t afford all 500 rounds on the equipment list. May I shoot four rounds for drills on which you specify six?” Is asking for that flexibility reasonable, or if we can’t afford the ammo, should we just wait until next year?

Ayoob: I would let them do four instead of six, although I couldn’t change that on the final qualification. I had a student in a recent class for whom it wasn’t the cost, but for medical reasons, she couldn’t handle anything but a .22. I said, “Shoot a .22 caliber Glock 44,” and she did fine, rather than struggling with a gun that was going to hurt her every time she fired because of her medical condition. Sure, we make allowances just as we make allowances for the student in the wheelchair. For the student who has a hearing disability, we make sure they’re at the center of the line closest to the microphones or the speakers so they can hear the commands and the range officers watch to make sure they’re getting the safety commands.

Students, please, do not be reticent about your medical issues. If your condition may cause dizziness or passing out on the line, the instructors need to know. You don’t need to tell the whole class, but if, for example, you’re not feeling well and you wander off out of sight to the parking lot and have a heart attack in your car, we’re not going to find you in time. If you’re feeling the least bit dizzy, holster the gun, raise a hand. Tell the nearest assistant instructor, “I’m not feeling well,” and take it from there. Don’t be handling lethal weapons when you might get dizzy, you might get brain fog, or you might pass out.

If you’re outdoors and there are bugs and you’re subject to anaphylactic shock, we need to know where your epinephrine auto-injector is; if you’ve got a heart condition, we need to know where the digitalis is; if you’re a brittle diabetic, we need to know that and make sure we have everything in place accordingly. We’re prepared for the trauma, but you need to warn us about pre-existing medical conditions.Ayoob Interview

eJournal: You’re sympathetic to students who can’t do it all, so even someone with limited stamina might sit out a few drills as opposed to pushing too hard and not being able to finish class the next day.

Ayoob: That happens all the time. We just want you sitting it out behind the line, where we can keep an eye on you and make sure you’re okay.

eJournal: It would be nice if folks took advantage of this kind of flexibility and got essential training. What if a student has trouble making enough time for the whole program? Harking back some decades to when I taught, people would miss the last two hours to catch a flight. I felt bad, like, “Dang it, the good stuff’s coming and you’re leaving before we get to it?” Do you withhold a certificate, for example, for early departures?

Ayoob: For Heaven’s sake, don’t assume the class is going to end at noon on the last day. Find out what the scheduling is beforehand. Some classes and seminars end early, but if it’s a course like ours, we have to shoot a qualification at the end. I can’t give you the certificate if you haven’t stayed to shoot the qualification. Get a flight out the next morning, not a flight an hour or two after class is scheduled to be over. We make what allowances we can, but if you’ve taken that whole week out of your life, you can take one more evening and make sure you get the completion certificate. Remember, a whole lot of the class is at the very end. That’s when you take the final exams that we have in some of our courses, and take the final qualification we have in virtually all our shooting courses.

Don’t do it halfway! If you’ve made a commitment that requires air travel or several hours of automobile travel, you want to get the whole experience, for Heaven’s sake. You’ve paid maybe four figures for the class; you want to get your money’s worth. Don’t economize in the wrong places.

eJournal: Network members often say having to travel makes the expense of getting instruction too high. Can we talk a little about local experts and what training might be available without a trip to Gunsite or to a range that’s hosting the Massad Ayoob Group?

Ayoob: There are a lot of great instructors. You don’t have to come to me or to others who teach on a national level. Someone near you knows what you need to know. For example, in law enforcement some of the greatest instructors never left their home department. Frank McGee, the legendary instructor who changed New York City Police Department firearms training unit into a firearms and tactics unit, greatly increased the survivability of thousands of officers. Once a year, he would teach at Camp Perry, Ohio at the National Match championships and he indulged himself in that because his daughter lived near there and it gave him an excuse to visit. He’d say, “My job is these guys here in New York. That’s all I can handle.”

Another legendary instructor was Bill Groce of the Ohio Peace Officer Training Academy. His weapon techniques and his tactics were at least a decade ahead of his time. He was too busy in Ohio to find time to teach anywhere else. For police training, OPOTA was, and still is, like a little Athens.

You’re going to find people like Bill Groce or Frank McGee somewhere near where you are. Maybe they don’t like to travel; maybe they have other commitments that keep them from traveling. Ask around at the gun shops who are the best local trainers. There’s going to be someone who can give you what you need.

Beyond Physical Skills

eJournal: A huge piece of training, I believe, is guidance toward developing the mindset to carry us through an attack, to help us deal with the world as it truly is. How much of that must be taught in person? How much can one get through indirect instruction? I ask because we think so highly of your book Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right to Self Defense that we give a copy to new Network members when they join. How much mindset instruction needs to be in person and how much might we be able to learn through online lectures or through reading?

Ayoob: Some of what I teach needs to be in person because we require students to show us concealed carry permits or other proof that they’ve passed a criminal record background check. We don’t want what we teach in the wrong hands. Some of our instruction would be a guide on how to commit murder and get away with it. We can’t let that out, so I’ve never put that in any of the books, TV shows, or any of my YouTube training videos. That said, there’s a great deal that you can get by reading or on video.

You mentioned William Aprill. For those who don’t know, picture Stanton Samenow with a gun. Samenow was the first of the clinical psychologists to really probe the criminal mind, thinking and patterns of behavior. William Aprill took that to the next level. He was a master shooter and a master in hand-to-hand fighting. [Smiles sadly] We begged him to write a book. He didn’t. The best I could do is get him to do was one chapter in my book Armed Defense: What the Experts Want You to Know.

The good news is that he allowed himself to be videotaped when he gave lectures and if you Google William Aprill, you’ll find a ton of videos of him giving his lectures and they are literally priceless. Not to be missed! Those of you who have people in your family, in your ambit, in your circle that want self-defense training, but they’re terrified of guns, he shows how to recognize an assault beginning to happen, and how to present yourself in such a way that the predator says, “Whatever this is, it’s not prey. It might bite back. I’ll go elsewhere.” It doesn’t cost you a penny to watch William Aprill’s videos yourself and share them with your family.

eJournal: Check out the collection of William Aprill’s videos on a Personal Defense Network tribute page dedicated to his memory at https://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/post/williamaprill where the viewer can freely absorb hours and hours of his instruction on video.

Ayoob: Google the names of all of us who teach, and you’ll find video of lectures that we’ve given, perhaps cases we’ve been involved in, and other material in which we explain the actual dynamics of a violent encounter. You can learn a great deal from YouTube where there are gold nuggets and a whole lot of crap. The more you learn, the better you’ll be at sorting the crap from the gold.

eJournal: Refining the gold is a tough issue that can come up even during classes. Thinking back many years, I clearly remember being in class taught by a person who suggested after a home-defense shooting taking your family into the “green room” and telling them what to say. By that time, most students in that room had graduated from your training. There was a collective gasp and a lot of whispering started.

Now, if we had not had your training, and if we had been over-awed by that instructor’s forceful personality, I wonder if we would have been smart enough to think, “Oh, we’re not sure if this happens that we’re going to do that with our kids!” Whether we are, as you said, sorting the dross out of the gold on YouTube or if we’re in a classroom, we sure would like to know what red warning flags tell us, “Hey, I do need to get a second opinion?”

Ayoob: Always, always apply common sense. The instructor in question seems to think he can suspend the time-space continuum. While he is telling his family what to say, doesn’t he think that neighbors heard the gunfire? Their calls to 9-1-1 will be timed and from the first responding officer to the lead investigator to the folks on the jury, people will be wondering what went on during all those minutes between the shootings and when the homeowner called the police with what turned out to be a prepared statement. I consider that horrible advice.

I’m told there are still instructors out there who tell you that when you draw a gun you should yell, “Police!” even when you’re not police. They are telling you to impersonate a police officer, which is a crime. All you need is three IQ points and you’re going to figure out this is not the best advice.Ayoob 3

You know, the ancient ones had a saying, “Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus” meaning if you bullshit me a little, I’ve got to assume everything else you’re telling me is bullshit, too. Trust your bullshit detectors; trust your common sense. My definition of tactics is common sense applied with a specific knowledge of the relevant disciplines. Trust your common sense.

eJournal: There’s a lot to unpack here. What’s the takeaway? What do we need to leave here knowing more than anything else?

Ayoob: The training is there. Check around with others who’ve been through the training. Make sure you know what you want. Before you go to the auto dealership, you’ve decided whether you need a sedan, a van, or a pickup truck. Decide what you feel you need for training. Reach out to the trainers ask them what they offer. Tell them what your level of experience, expertise and training is as of right now and ask them for their guidance on what in their curriculum they think would be the best for you.

eJournal: Thank you, Mas, for all the good advice, and as always, thanks for sharing with us.

Ayoob: It’s a pleasure.

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Network Advisory Board member Massad Ayoob is author of Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right to Self Defense which is distributed in our new member education package that’s sent to all new Network members. He has additionally authored several dozen books and hundreds of articles on firearms, self defense, and related topics. Since 1979, he has received judicial recognition as an expert witness for the courts in weapons and shooting cases, and was a fully sworn and empowered, part-time police officer for over forty years at ranks from patrolman through captain. He serves as president of the Second Amendment Foundation. Ayoob founded the Lethal Force Institute in 1981 and now teaches through Massad Ayoob Group of which he is the director. Learn more at https://massadayoobgroup.com or read his blog at https://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/ .

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